Marc: What are the objectives?

Jonny: To stay current with Bootstrap versions, not fall too far behind. . . . Maybe Bootstrap 5 could go in 23.2 and just warn people that custom themes will be broken.

M: What's the problem of waiting for Tiki 25 for Bootstrap 5?

J: It'll be over a year away. . . . There is also Font Awesome. It was an idea that I thought was worth discussing, and we'd never done one before, a something-point-five version. And we make the rules up so we could do it if suited.

M: There's two ways to look at this. We could say it's a 23.5, but the other idea is to say it's a 24.0. That's a pre-release, a developer release.

J: As long as that doesn't mean more branches to maintain. We could release stuff from trunk at any point.

M: Tiki 24 is going to be released in six months. Nothing stops us from creating a snapshot from trunk at any time, and just saying here's what it's called. About Bootstrap 5, I think it's better to wait for Tiki 25 because from now to Tiki 24 is a shorter period than usual, it's only six months. Ideally this is a stabilization release, so there are fewer things that are disruptive. We already have quite a few things on our plate to finish up: PSR12, PHP8, and moving to Bootstrap 5 would be disruptive for anybody who has a custom theme. Ideally, we would have told people at the Tiki 21 part, hey, if you have a custom theme and you don't want to have a big upgrade, stay at Tiki 21, but now let's say somebody is a Tiki 22 or 23, they are goong to be forced to upgrade to Tiki 24 because Tiki 23 support is out, and that forces them on a rework of their theme.

M: In the past, the way our Bootstrap stuff worked is that if someone went from Tiki 15 to 18, or 17 to 18, and it's only between 18 and 19 that it changes.

M: So major changes like Bootstrap 5, hopefully it'll be a lot easier than from Bootstrap 3 to 4, but still from 3 to 4 we got some surprises, like some of the plugins weren't Bootstrap 4 compatible. Then you have to do workarounds and hacks and you have to run around upstream . . . and there's a lot of rabbit holes that can happen. That's why I think it's better to do Bootstrap 5 with Tiki 25. Then we have much more time, we have eight months. Nothing stops us from doing experiments before. We could have a branch just for that. And then, in Tiki 25, if Boostrap 5 is a little wonky at first, well it's a Tiki 25 as opposed to an LTS, and that's what people are told to expect.

J: Yeah, I think I agree.

Gary: Yeah, I was kind of anxious (to do it) just because I like the idea of it but, you're right, in practical terms that schedule makes more sense, to take our time with it.

G: I'd like, in conjunction with that, to kind of look at our CSS overall and see if we can get rid of some of our legacy CSS and clean it up and maybe given that amount of time we can make it much nicer than it is right new.

G: So a kind of consensus is to hold off on this until after and take a little more leisurely pace.

J: Yeah, I think so. Font Awesome 6 has probably just got more restrictions and more stuff that isn't free, and not a huge benefit for us to follow that.